Author Topic: Annotations  (Read 930 times)

sinus

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Annotations
« on: September 28, 2016, 04:03:13 PM »
Hi all

IMatch has improved its Face Detection and Annotations.

So if we have a group-photo, we can let IMatch add for each face a rectangle and write then the name below.
This works quite fine.

My general questions, because face detection is new for me:

1)
That other people know the names, some photographer did since ages write the names below the photos, mostly in the description field, like
"left to right: John Miller, Suzanne Sadler, Mike Hensler, Jimmy Door"

Experienced persons could look into the iptc (xmp) and see the names.
For the others mostly photographer attached a print, or a word doc, a pdf with all the names written.

Could the face annotations be here a replace?
I see just now not a way for people, who has only a "normal" photoshop or another image-program, how they could see the names, like we can do it in IMatch with the viewer or quick view.

2)
I gues, the answer on question 1 is, that they cannot see it (except they have a new program, Picasa and so on).
In this case, is it possible to create a jpg with IMatch, so that I end with a copy of the image with all the names and rectangles there?
In this case maybe I could send the real image and such a "copy with the names".

Thanks for any hints about face detection and the current use nowadays.

Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

hluxem

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 05:07:43 PM »
Hello Sinus,
Welcome to the world of face annotations.

1:
Quote
who has only a "normal" photoshop
Not sure about Photoshop, but Lightroom has face recognition features and will display the names as well. If you use face annotations together with keywords, the names will show up in the keywords as well. 

2:
Quote
create a jpg
Never thought of creating a jpg with the face annotations, I rarely use printed pictures and Imatch is my viewer of choice. Just checked it out, that "feature request" was implemented before somebody could even think of it.  :). Go to the batch processor, under metadata check "Include annotation".

Heiner

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 05:33:47 PM »
Quote
I see just now not a way for people, who has only a "normal" photoshop or another image-program, how they could see the names, like we can do it in IMatch with the viewer or quick view.
Photoshop does not do face annotations. You need a fairly modern Lr version or the free (but no longer supported) Google Picasa.

There are not many application out there which understand face annotations or XMP regions (IMatch does!).

But most applications (including IMatch) copy the "tag" you assign to a face also into the hierarchical keywords. IMatch is the only software I know which allows you to control where into your hierarchical keywords the name tag is written (default: WHO|person).

If you display keywords from this hierarchy node in your file window layout, you see all the person names. In the same way you can use them in the Batch Processor, Design & Print etc. IMatch integrates faces real deep, allowing you to use them in many ways.

There is a special collection branch in the Collection view, which quickly allows you to see all images with face annotations, grouped by person.

What IMatch currently does not do (there seems not really that much demand) is to manage faces as a separate entity (thing) in the database.. Such a feature would store the faces separately in the database, allow to rename all face regions from "Susan" to "Suzette" etc. I will look into something like this when there is demand.

Besides, once IMatch AnywhereTM has been integrated into IMatch I can offer people to use one of the on-line face detection services (e.g. from Microsoft or the Frauenhofer institute) and then record the result into the XMP regions. This would give us a full face detection workflow without the need for me to spend 15,000 US$ per for a face detection component (Adobe can pay that, I don't).

Quote
In this case, is it possible to create a jpg with IMatch, so that I end with a copy of the image with all the names and rectangles there?

Of course. This is IMatch!
You can render annotations in the Batch Processor, for example.  In that case, the output file has the face rectangles and the names below them.

jch2103

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 06:42:19 PM »
Besides, once IMatch AnywhereTM has been integrated into IMatch I can offer people to use one of the on-line face detection services (e.g. from Microsoft or the Frauenhofer institute) and then record the result into the XMP regions. This would give us a full face detection workflow without the need for me to spend 15,000 US$ per for a face detection component (Adobe can pay that, I don't).

That would be very interesting... BTW, what's the link for the on-line face detection from the Frauenhofer institute? I could only find a link for download of a free demo version, or is that what you meant?
John

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 07:05:54 PM »
Sorry, this was from memory.

Check out potential candidates here: https://facedetection.com/software/

Note: Most of the online variants require you to upload your image to detect the faces (OK) but they then keep the faces to "improve their service". Make sure that you have the rights to upload the faces.  I found Bateface and the Microsoft Labs demo working very well.

sinus

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 10:46:23 PM »
Thank you all for your interesting inputs.
Really very interesting.

I will read more about this.
On one side it is interesting and could improve the workflow, on the other side I fear to do a nice thing with face annotations (even more detection), but what in fact does bring not that much in the daily business.
Maybe family photos is another usefull thing.
But say in daily photojournalism I am not sure, if this does a lot of these people.

I will read more informations about it.
Thanks a lot.
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

Erik

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 08:34:09 PM »
Admittedly, I've not tried to annotate faces, not even mess with it in LR.  Perhaps with automatic face detection in IMatch, I might, but it isn't a priority for me.

Question, however,  related to keywords and faces:

I already have a keyword hierarchy that essentially is like this:  Who|Last Name|First Name.  It is defined in the Thesaurus that way.  Does IMatch make it possible to use the keyword thesaurus to assign an annotation?  I'll check the help file when I next get a chance (I don't have IMatch in front of me at the moment). I think I will consider annotations for items that are not people (like flowers, trees, animals) if I can select from keywords in my thesaurus without concern for where in the hierarchy they may be.

The idea of annotations is appealing, but it is another aspect of file management that may be overkill for what I really need.  It's more of a curiosity. 

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 08:42:42 PM »
Yes. IMatch uses the thesaurus as the source for the suggestion list when you assign tags. The help has all the details.

Face Annotations are just a part of the Annotation concept in IMatch (and usually all that other 'DAM' applications offer, if at all).

In fact the ability to place non-destructive vector-based objects on images is a feature that is widely used by scientists, insurance specialists, researches, historians, sport photographers etc. You can highlight elements in an image and describe them in many ways, mark areas in an image to indicate things to retouch later etc.

If you have a need for this kind of feature, IMatch Annotations will do a very good job. I don't know any other DAM that costs less than a couple of thousand dollars which offers this functionality.

I really think I should do some tutorial videos on all that stuff.  Unfortunately, there is so little timer. But I think after IMatch AnywhereTM is out there will be more time. And I there will be a few tutorial videos for IMatch Anywhere.

Erik

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 09:18:54 PM »
No worries, Mario.

I've skipped it partially because I'll get carried away.  With people, I essentially know who everyone is in a photo.  If I start, I'll want to do it for everything even when it isn't necessary. 

You know, the help file is a pretty good manual for the program.  I've not even looked at the annotations section.  I feel confident everything will be covered when I do get around to using it. 

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 10:20:12 PM »
Yeah, check it out. It shows what can be done and maybe you get some ideas about how you can use it for your workflow. And if you don't need Annotations, that's OK to. It's not often needed in 'regular' photography. Scientific, microscope, architecture and tech photography - sure. Family photos - rarely.

sinus

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 09:54:45 AM »
Yeah, check it out. It shows what can be done and maybe you get some ideas about how you can use it for your workflow. And if you don't need Annotations, that's OK to. It's not often needed in 'regular' photography. Scientific, microscope, architecture and tech photography - sure. Family photos - rarely.

Yes.
Say, I have a group of 12 people and want give names to send it to a family member or to a client, who creates a flyer or a photo in a newspaper.

So, what makes sense, how to write down the names?

Family:
I guess, this could be interesting for other family member to have the annotations with these nice rectangles and the name below. But if you want not only write the first name (maybe we have 3 John or Sue), you have to write "Susanne Alder-Nowitzky" and then, I think, this can be quite easy give a mess in the image. Specialy if you have not a big monitor.

Alternatively write the names down, like before: from left to right: Susanne ...

Clients:
In these cases, say for a flyer, the names have also to be written down on the real paper. So, also here, I think, print an image with all names looks quickly like a mess and does, btw, hide some parts of the image.
Also here, I would think, the most clients would like to write the names below the image.

So, at the moment, for me it makes not a lot of sense to do so in "normal" photography.

But of course it depends, how much we want deliver such "group photos" and for what.
If we wand have a nice evening with a slideshow from and for the family, than it can be very funny to use these rectangles with names, here it would be funnier then all names written below.

Hm, I must still think and read about it.
Sounds really nice, this whole face detection stuff, and if we add face recognition, it is even more fun.

Mario, a short question: would it make sense to add a feature request, that we can choose the font or at least the font-size of the names below a rectangle? Because I had there some problems with longer names, that all names getted quite small. If you say, no chance, then I leave it, because I do not know anyway, if I want work with this feature. ;)

It is really impressive, what we can do with IMatch. Sometimes I think, it comes always new stuff, and there is no end, but all is very fascinating.
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2016, 10:14:26 AM »
For classic photography (and most agencies demand it that way anyway) its the "From left to right: Peter Bla, Paul Blu, Petulia X" list as part of the caption.

The face tag font cannot be changed because this type of annotation is not really designed for printing, just to visualize the results of face detection or the results imported by other applications. The font scales to be well readable at all resolutions. If you instead add a real text annotation / box, you can fully control the font size of course.

Erik

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 06:10:46 PM »
Yeah, check it out. It shows what can be done and maybe you get some ideas about how you can use it for your workflow. And if you don't need Annotations, that's OK to. It's not often needed in 'regular' photography. Scientific, microscope, architecture and tech photography - sure. Family photos - rarely.

Thanks... that fact that is not needed regularly is why I haven't used it yet.  I kind of want to, and perhaps I'll test it out once or twice.  I do think it can be useful for regular photography. I think I'm more scared of liking it and then feeling a need to go back and annotate images from the past, which I really don't have time for. That's my own battle.  Thankfully, it's there when I'm ready. 

sinus

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2016, 07:55:21 AM »
Yeah, check it out. It shows what can be done and maybe you get some ideas about how you can use it for your workflow. And if you don't need Annotations, that's OK to. It's not often needed in 'regular' photography. Scientific, microscope, architecture and tech photography - sure. Family photos - rarely.

Thanks... that fact that is not needed regularly is why I haven't used it yet.  I kind of want to, and perhaps I'll test it out once or twice.  I do think it can be useful for regular photography. I think I'm more scared of liking it and then feeling a need to go back and annotate images from the past, which I really don't have time for. That's my own battle.  Thankfully, it's there when I'm ready.

Erik, I feel with you.
Sometimes I have also to battle with this. If new stuff is possbible, I tend to like it doing so with all my files.
Sometimes it is easy, sometimes not.

But with the thing for face annotations, I have not really this feeling. I will do it maybe with some historical images from my familiy, where we really not know, who is who. And maybe, if I have the next group image for a client, I will think about this. Or make a test, send him/her both, names under the image and a second one with the names in the image (batch with IMatch).

It is really fascinating and a bit fearing, what we can put into one single image.  8) :o
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

Mario

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2016, 08:21:44 AM »
Annotations cannot only be used for faces. That's just one special type of annotations.
IMatch users work with Annotations in many ways, e.g.



Or


« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 08:52:19 AM by Mario »

sinus

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Re: Annotations
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2016, 10:55:40 AM »
Exactly.
Nice examples.
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus