Author Topic: Predefined keyword sets?  (Read 1303 times)

lbo

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Predefined keyword sets?
« on: March 08, 2021, 09:07:55 PM »
Hi all,

how can I manage and invoke sets of keywords, for example:
1. Architecture|Building|Castle; historic monument; tourist destination
2. Infrastructure|Transportation|Road; material|asphalt; material|concrete

I maintain dozens of such "topics", each containing more keywords than shown above, some of the keywords to be deleted (e.g. asphalt or concrete in the example) after invocation.

Currently, I maintain a simple text file containing these sets. I search the text file and copy/paste the line to the keyword panel.

Is there a better way in IMatch?

With flat keywords, I could use the thesaurus either with synonyms or "use sub elements". But I'm afraid that's not the intention because it would put a lot of redundancy into the thesaurus.

Metadata Templates seem to be a bit "heavy" for this task and harder to maintain and use. OTOH they could add not only keywords but also a description framework.

"Sample images" containing the keyword sets might be an alternative, but I don't see a convenient way to select them with a few keystrokes (e.g. the "topic name").

Any ideas outperforming my external text file?

Oliver

Tveloso

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2021, 04:54:15 AM »
This sounds like you could use Category Splasher Favorites:

    https://www.photools.com/help/imatch/#fav_basics.htm?dl=h-8

You will need to have assigned the various Keywords you want to create a Splasher from, at least once each (so they appear all in your @Keywords Tree), and then you can create a splasher from any combination of those Keywords.

For example, if you created a Splasher Favorite from the three Keywords in your second example:

    Infrastructure|Transportation|Road
    material|asphalt
    material|concrete


...a single click of that favorite would then assign all three keywords at once to all selected files.
--Tony

lbo

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2021, 10:33:38 AM »
This sounds like you could use Category Splasher Favorites:

this looks interesting, thanks for the suggestion!

Generally, I consider Category favorites somewhat dangerous, since a single click can cause huge data changes without any confirmation and without working undo.

Creating and maintaining Category Splasher Favorites initially seemed to be not that easy:
  • With a huge @Keywords category, selecting from the Category View is a bit awkward. You can't use different filter terms to successively add categories.
  • I found no way to create a Category Splasher Favorite from an existing image, since the Categories Panel doesn't allow to create a Splasher

But I can hack a conversion tool from semikolon separated keyword lists to the format used in the Splasher entries (lines starting with @Keywords|). Then I can create the set from existing images, with the help of the keyword panel etc. and then create a Category Splasher Favorite from it.

Oliver

Mario

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2021, 11:22:22 AM »
Quote
since a single click can cause huge data changes without any confirmation

I bet that most users would find a prompt like "You clicked on the Assign Category favorite. Do you really want to apply the Favorite" whenever you click on a favorite rather disturbing.

Quote
and without working undo.

When I assign 10 categories via a favorite and then use Edit > Undo, the categories are removed again.
Just tested. Works for normal categories as well as keywords. I use that very often.

There is no related bug report. Please double-check that Undo does not work and then file an official bug report.

Quote
But I can hack a conversion tool from semikolon separated keyword lists to the format used in the Splasher entries (lines starting with @Keywords|). Then I can create the set from existing images, with the help of the keyword panel etc. and then create a Category Splasher Favorite from it.

Would it not be much easier to just use the variable
{File.Categories|filter:@Keywords;replace:~;=={cr}{lf}}
in the VarToy or the Copy Data App

This returns a list of all categories for the current file as a list, with one category per row.
Which is incidentally exactly the format you can copy and paste into a Category Splasher.

No need for hacking anything or a conversion tool or whatever. Just use what IMatch offers you.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 11:29:12 AM by Mario »

lbo

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2021, 03:13:18 PM »
I bet that most users would find a prompt like "You clicked on the Assign Category favorite. Do you really want to apply the Favorite" whenever you click on a favorite rather disturbing.

I'm aware of the conflicting expectations and agree that some users might be annoyed by a confirmation prompt.

Nevertheless I consider it pretty dangerous just for me, with my specific workflow, to add a bunch of keywords with a single mouse click and without feedback.

When I assign 10 categories via a favorite and then use Edit > Undo, the categories are removed again.
Just tested. Works for normal categories as well as keywords. I use that very often.

There is no related bug report. Please double-check that Undo does not work and then file an official bug report.

the categories seem to be removed, but not the keywords (see screenshots). Strange...

I won't file a bug report because I'm still on IMatch 2019.

Quote
But I can hack a conversion tool from semikolon separated keyword lists to the format used in the Splasher entries (lines starting with @Keywords|). Then I can create the set from existing images, with the help of the keyword panel etc. and then create a Category Splasher Favorite from it.
Would it not be much easier to just use the variable
{File.Categories|filter:@Keywords;replace:~;=={cr}{lf}}
in the VarToy or the Copy Data App

By "hacking" I considered something like this.

Oliver

Mario

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2021, 03:28:28 PM »
Quote
the categories seem to be removed, but not the keywords (see screenshots). Strange...

I won't file a bug report because I'm still on IMatch 2019.

This bug has been solved a long time ago. There are very good reasons to keep your IMatch version current.

Rene Toepfer

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2021, 08:06:26 PM »
I have a similar query like the thread opener.


If I set a keyword @Keyword:Ort|Deutschland|Essen I would like that @Keyword:Region|Ruhrgebiet also to be set. A favorite, like Tveloso explained in second post, would be not practically because I would create for each place a separate favorite.
As synonym I could set "Ruhrgebiet" but than I don't have it as a keyword to filter.
I was looking in the keyword property if it is possible to add some more keywords, like in favorites, but haven't found such a setting.

Mario

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2021, 08:19:21 PM »
Quote
As synonym I could set "Ruhrgebiet" but than I don't have it as a keyword to filter.

Synonyms are an IMatch concept.
When synonyms assigned (when the corresponding keyword is assigned), they become normal keywords and thus all keyword-related features like filtering work like with any other keyword.

Keyword favorites make easy work when you want to assign groups or unrelated keywords, from different sections of your thesaurus.

Rene Toepfer

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2021, 08:40:08 PM »
Ah, OK, I've found it! It is not a sub-element of the keyword but on the same level than the keyword.

lbo

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2021, 10:41:28 AM »
If I set a keyword @Keyword:Ort|Deutschland|Essen I would like that @Keyword:Region|Ruhrgebiet also to be set.

The limitation is that synonyms are strictly on the same level as the related keyword. This means, you can define Ort|Deutschland|München|Stachus as a synonym for Ort|Deutschland|München|Karlsplatz, but you can't have Region|Bayern as a synonym for it.

For such less-restricted "links", the word "synonyms" wouldn't be adequate appropriate anymore.

"links" would be rather useful also for my requirements as long as the inserted keywords would remain editable.

Links could have a property "add automatically" to satisfy your use case: Ort|Deutschland|Essen is known to be in Region|Ruhrgebiet so you might decide to always invoke it.

For "Infrastructure|Transportation|Road", the user needs to decide whether to add "material|asphalt" or "material|concrete". In this case a suggestion system would be nice, but not mandatory: The unwanted keywords can be deleted in the existing interface.

A favorite, like Tveloso explained in second post, would be not practically because I would create for each place a separate favorite.

I agree, favorites seem to be harder to maintain than entries in the Thesaurus.

What do you think, should we create a feature request?

Tveloso

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2021, 02:45:33 PM »
So this would be a Keyword Set that's "housed" along with a particular Keyword in the Thesaurus (the way Synonyms are), but that would assign disparate parts of the Keyword Hierarchy (the way a Splasher Favorite does), correct?

And then whenever that given Keyword is assigned, the "linked" Keywords in the Set would either be assigned automatically (the way Synonyms are), or if so configured, the user could be prompted with that Keyword Set for selection (with perhaps some of them already always selected)?...

That sounds like it would be would a great feature.
--Tony

lbo

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2021, 04:52:55 PM »
Add further comments / votes to the feature request: https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=11122.0

Jingo

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2021, 01:55:08 PM »
Also - see this post for a similar discussion (I believe) we had back in 2019.... https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=9157.msg64498#msg64498

Mario

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Re: Predefined keyword sets?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2022, 04:49:09 PM »
I think this has been resolved with the introduction of Keyword Links.