Custom sort not preserved on view all versions

Started by jonz, October 11, 2017, 05:19:06 PM

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jonz

I have large groups of manually sequenced (and filtered) photos in category view and in custom sort order. I shoot in RAW and then have a TIF or JPG version that I need to place in InDesign. Ideally, I'd like to just refilter the sequence to show only the versions (in the same custom order), and then drag and place them in InDesign. I don't seem to be able to get that to work though, when I toggle the version stack the TIF/JPG versions appear at the end of the file window and out of order and I don't see a way of refiltering that works either.

My question is this: In category view with a custom sort order (filtered) of the stacked masters is there a way to switch to a view where I have the same custom sort with the version file(s) accessible? This doesn't work for me in the main window and the viewer [view all versions] shows the files out of sequence (but with the versions) ... I don't seem to be able to find a way to do this. I hope I've been clear.

Thanks

Mario

IMatch stores custom sort orders per folder and per category.
-- Mario
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jonz

So I don't understand why if I stay in the same category and change the filter (to go from master to version) the same custom order isn't preserved. Is the custom order specific to the master file only and not propagated to versions?

Mario

#3
Sort orders do not propagate.
When you rearrange files in a folder or category, IMatch remembers the order of these files - in that folder or category.
Basically IMatch remembers the order in which the files appear after you have arranged them.

It does not matter if these are versions or masters. I use that often.
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jonz

This is what I expected and hoped for, but it's not the way that it's working for me. When I change the filter while in a category to switch from masters to versions the sort order changes. I've tried using filters using both the attribute presets (for example show versions only) or collection check boxes. The filters themselves work but the order of the files is not preserved.

Mario

A filter affects the scope and the custom sort may not work.
Custom sorts are for plain views only, without filter or search box active. If a filter or search box is active, the scope comes from a different source. it's no longer a folder or a category, but a search result.
-- Mario
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jonz

I was hoping this wasn't the case. I'm editing down big groups of photos and I need to be able to switch between masters and versions in order to place in InDesign. Is there some way to do this that I'm not seeing, other than making physical copies of the version files? I need something that's not clunky so that I can go back and edit content without having do do many steps each time. I had hoped that "show all versions" would preserve the custom order - I don't see why it doesn't if the filter hasn't changed at all. That way you at least have access to the versions and it's a simple drag and drop to InDesign.

sinus

I have not tried this.

If this works not, and this seems to be the case, then I would think about another workflow.

If you must have the jpg in InDesign, why not arrange not the raws, but the jpgs?

Or, hmm:
After arranged the raws, use a metadata-field to store a number, 1,2,3,4 ...
Hence each raws has a correct sort-number.

AFTER this you do the propagation, where (depending on your propagation-preferences) this field is also propagated to the jpg.
After this you could filter, search only for jpgs.

There, you can let use these jpgs sorting for this metadata-field (you must create before ONCE such a sorting) and you have the same order like your raws.

Well, I have not the time to try this, but should work.
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

Mario

Quote from: jonz on October 11, 2017, 11:33:06 PM
I had hoped that "show all versions" would preserve the custom order - I don't see why it doesn't if the filter hasn't changed at all.
Do you mean the "Show all versions command" which opens the versions in a new result window?
In that case: Result windows don't have custom sort orders. Custom sort orders are stored (and applied) per folder and category.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. You talk about masters and versions, custom sort orders, the filer panel, now result windows...
What do you want to do?
-- Mario
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jonz

From a practical point of view, I've edited down 2300+ photos in RAW format (with jpg or tif versions) using several categories. So in each of those categories may be say 80 photos (not counting versions), rated (by stars) differently. I have sequenced them and filtered them - the ones that are rated five stars are the ones I want to use in a book layout. So I'm filtered down to five stars, and showing only the master versions of the files (collapsed) in sequence. OK, so now I want to place the version file (tif or jpg) into my page layout program. It's not like the batch processor or print module where I can drag and drop the master and have the version file used - I need to get at that version file directly, still preserving the sequencing. I had hoped that just changing the filter would give me the versions all in order, but from my experience (and what you say) that does not work. I understand. But I don't see why "view all versions", with no filter change, has to change the order of the files (master + versions) presented. I realized last night, thinking about this, that I've always had problems with custom sorts and it's because I didn't understand that they were specific to folder or category AND you couldn't refilter them. This is a problem for anyone doing large sequenced projects and for a program as insanely useful as IMatch I can't believe there aren't other people who have run up against these same problems - perhaps, like me, not understanding why. Any suggestions welcome. Have I been clear this time? Thanks.

Mario

QuoteBut I don't see why "view all versions", with no filter change, has to change the order of the files (master + versions) presented.

This opens the files in a result window. Result window just display an arbitrary arrangement of files.
Result windows cannot access the per-category / per-folder sort data. You need to "be" in the folder / category for which you have created the sort order.

If you have both the masters and the versions in the same category, they can have a custom sort order. Sort profiles don't work differently for masters and versions.

Just checked and it works great.

I added a master and four versions to a category. Each version has a different label color (for testing).
2 versions and the master have 5 stars, the other versions 3 stars.

Switched to the custom sort profile.
Re-arranged the files so a 5* comes first, then a 3 start, the master, 3 star, 5 star.
Enabled a rating filter to hide all files with a rating < 5.
Custom sort order is retained, only the master and 3 versions remain.
Switched the filter to show only 3*. Only two versions remain, in their custom sort order.

This should work for your system as well.



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jonz

OK. So I have 167 files in the same category, filtered down to 27 by rating 5*. This shows 27 masters. If I go to file properties under the filter manager, and enable hide masters I get the 27 versions, but they are all out of order. So the custom sort is not being preserved. ??

Mario

This does not change the sort order here. I'm still in the category click the "hide masters". All masters are hidden, versions displayed in the same (custom) sort order as before.

IMatch sorts the files loaded into the file window (after the filter has been applied) always in the same way, using the active sort profile. There is no difference whether or not the files have been filtered or if the search bar is active. Just checked. The sort routine is always called, the id of the current category is used to load the custom sort order (if any) and then the files are sorted based on that order.
-- Mario
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jonz

QuoteThis does not change the sort order here. I'm still in the category click the "hide masters". All masters are hidden, versions displayed in the same (custom) sort order as before.

Boy, this really does not work for me. I have version stacks collapsed, I change the filter using "File Properties" to hide the masters, and the versions appear but are out of order. That's all that I'm doing. I don't see any logic to their "sort", like file name. The sort is still tagged as "Custom", so that's not changing. What is causing my results to be different from yours? I know I've seen this before, I just haven't worked through it and this time it's important enough to me to contact you.

Mario

Please explain exactly what you are doing, step-by step. I want to do the same steps here.

When I toggle the stack state of the master, all versions vanish. OK.
Now I use the filter panel to hide the master. This will reveal the versions. OK.
The versions are in the same (custom) sort order I have defined for the category. OK.

-- Mario
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jonz

We're doing the same things with different results. We don't, however, have even remotely the same set of photographs we're working on. I have a mix of files in the category. There are 167 total. They are rated differently, some a unedited RAWs, some are edited RAWs (masters) with output TIF or JPGs as versions that are stacked. I don't know what's giving us different results. The filters work well and predictably; its the custom order that doesn't. I believe I've seen this before, like I said.

Mario

I use custom sort orders for almost all my files, in combination with version sets. And categories of course.

When new files come it, they are versioned automatically. Other versions are added while I work on the files.
I arrange the masters and versions in the way I want them. The custom sort order always sticks.

Tip: Did you try to reset the custom sort order once to clear it?

Switch to Default sort profile.

Select all files in your category (make sure all files are visible: No filter. Press Ctrl+A to select all files. <T> to toggle stacks (open all stacks). Then press Shift+Ctrl+R to reset the custom sort order to the currently selected sort profile.

Switch back to custom and repeat your tests.
-- Mario
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jonz

No, even after I do that when I switch back to custom and move between masters and versions the order is not preserved. The order is preserved in default, but not in custom. I don't see any logic to what's happening, unfortunately. This seems like a tough problem to me. I'll try and work around it.

jonz

I have been working around this but also looking to see if I could find a lead as to exactly what is happening; I would really like to see the same behavior you are reporting - it would make using this aspect of IMatch (custom order) a whole lot more useful for me (to understate it).

Is there perhaps a setting in preferences or somewhere else that could be breaking the order for me? I will try and work more at this but it seems to me like I'm just trying things at random, because I don't know where the problem is. Any leads or ideas much appreciated.

sinus

No idea from me to solve this.
But I gave an idea of one solution, at least to try.
Best wishes from Switzerland! :-)
Markus

Mario

Quote from: jonz on October 17, 2017, 08:02:54 PM
I have been working around this but also looking to see if I could find a lead as to exactly what is happening; I would really like to see the same behavior you are reporting - it would make using this aspect of IMatch (custom order) a whole lot more useful for me (to understate it).

Is there perhaps a setting in preferences or somewhere else that could be breaking the order for me? I will try and work more at this but it seems to me like I'm just trying things at random, because I don't know where the problem is. Any leads or ideas much appreciated.

Never had a a problem report before. Works here on two machines and one tablet, with different databases.
-- Mario
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jonz

Well, I can't solve this and I'd like to leave a note that thankfully three out of five categories in my editing worked as they should have, meaning that in those three categories I could switch between master and version and preserve the custom order.

The two categories that do not work totally stump me. All the categories have basically the same content - 80 to 200 files rated differently, some single files (RAF) and some masters with versions (RAF+JPG). When I filter down this group to only the 5* selects, I have between 15-40 displayed photos, which almost invariably master plus version (RAF+JPG) combos.

So up until that point they are in the custom order and everything is A-OK.

Now, when I switch the filter to file properties>hide masters the custom order breaks. The same thing happens using filter Collections>Relations.

In the big picture this doesn't really matter a whole lot, I would just like to find what it is so perhaps other people don't run up against this frustrating and obscure limitation in the future (and that it works for me!). Reading the news today about Lightroom CC I especially appreciate the long-term and meticulous work that Mario has put in on developing this program in conjunction with the users, the philosophy behind it, and the support he and other people give to the community.

Mario

Have you tried to create a new category, move the files from one of the "not working" categories into that category?
Does this solve the custom sort problem?

If some of your categories work (like mine do) maybe something weird has happened to these categories in the past.
Since IMatch keeps separate custom sort orders per category, a new category will start "fresh".
-- Mario
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